[taowave]

Thanks PC,

Thats interesting...

Can a non Stott sort of fellow obtain a manual??

T

Pilates Core, on 03 January 2010 - 01:15 AM, said:

Tao, I don't know if it's a Stott-specific thing, but we have tonnnnns of posterior-chain exercises. If you're willing to go outside the box, so to speak, check out a Stott manual - you may find some good stuff in there.

[Pilates Core]

Most of them, yes. http://store.stottpi...de=346&TopCat=7

[Pilates Core]

PS, the DVDs show all the exercises, and are cheaper. Just a bit harder to reference later on.

[LAville]

I have had all the Stott manuals for years and refer to them frequently.
T as someone like myself who has a strong fitness background you will probably find that many Stott exercises bare a strong resemblence to what you do in the gym.

The manuals are great, and include all the muscle groups of primary and secondary muscles during each phase of the exercise that is being explained.

The transversus and spinal stabilizers are always activiated but the maunals make a clear distinction as to when the other trunk muscles get invloved and what movements they are responsible for..

I am sure they have been update since I got mine,( in the mid-90's at a fitness convention where Moria was introducing Stott Pilates Mat and Reformer ) but all in all they are a wonderful reference source.

[taowave]

Thanks Pc and L,

I will definetly add them to my library.This board has been very helpful in furthering my understanding of Pilates and the human body,but hazardous to my wallet..

LAville, on 03 January 2010 - 03:42 PM, said:

I have had all the Stott manuals for years and refer to them frequently.
T as someone like myself who has a strong fitness background you will probably find that many Stott exercises bare a strong resemblence to what you do in the gym.

The manuals are great, and include all the muscle groups of primary and secondary muscles during each phase of the exercise that is being explained.

The transversus and spinal stabilizers are always activiated but the maunals make a clear distinction as to when the other trunk muscles get invloved and what movements they are responsible for..

I am sure they have been update since I got mine,( in the mid-90's at a fitness convention where Moria was introducing Stott Pilates Mat and Reformer ) but all in all they are a wonderful reference source.

[Pilates Core]

I know that feeling :'(

[reinbeau]

fitdiva2007, on 02 January 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

I am always working on my glutes, not the least reason is because I have hip issues. I also like having nicely developed glutes as well. I have a couple of links to share.
The first is this article in Figure Athlete (don't open at work!!!). I failed the first test (I think my hip flexors are too tight) and barely passed the second. It is really eye opening, and may help you think about how some muscles (e.g. hamstrings) can really overcompensate for weak glutes.

Here's another blog post, entitled 'Respecting the Glutes' that talks about training the glutes for function, rather than just aesthetics.

Also, I really like kettlebell training, because it really focuses on the posterior chain. In many ways, it is quite complementary to pilates work (see Chris Robinson's website) because every exercise is a total body exercise.

That first link is now returning a 502 Bad Gateway error - but I had read the page the other day, so I think I remembered the two tests properly. Unfortunately I failed that first test. Doesn't surprise me, Pam's been telling me my glutes weren't firing properly. I've got to work on that. This thread has been a real eye opener for me, but my eyes should have already been open.....

[Carole Amend]

taowave, on 02 January 2010 - 03:50 PM, said:

Hi FD,
Thanks for the articles...One of my pet peeves with Pilates is it doesnt really work the posterior chain enough.It is one of the main reasons I still incorporate weight training and stability ball training into my workouts.I dont think there is any exercise that is better than the traditional Back Squat with free weights.If you really want to build hip drive and glute strength,then learn how to squat correctly..

Here's a Quote from Dr Mel Siff in 2000:

Quote

Pilates teachers and weight trainers were getting along just fine until the commercial marketeers came along to distort the facts with their comparative advertising.

taowave,
In case you'd like to chase the bone I just threw...
Siff --> Iron Game --> Physical Culture --> Stark Center Iron Game History--> Murray, Karpovich, etc.
Then you're close to Rathbone, Karpovich's wife, and what I've been working with since the early 90s.
Btw, with that info there's no need for comparison, only description.
Also, nothing to do with politics...simply technical, validated information.

[Carole Amend]

Since "Emma" named this "Weak Gluteal Muscles," I can see why the discussion went in that direction. However, I don't see working the glutes as a panacea for tight hamstrings. First, you need to discern if the hamstrings are tight, tense, or taut. Is it possible to talk about that online?....

In my experience, finding balance has more to do with the psoas/hamstring relationship as I tried to relate in my comment. If you want to search and find some myofascial meridian connection there...if that's your choice for an "excursion," that's surely helpful info. However, to me, you'll still end up in the realm of the dynamics and timing of whatever movement discipline you're articulating, and those criss cross all over Myers' stations and tracks....

[Pilates Core]

That's a good point - hamstrings can be both short and weak, too.

[jp823]

I have been lurking this thread since it started. It's very interesting especially since this is a very difficult connection for me. I do have some hyperextension in the knees and that contributes, to the difficulty in the heel to seat connection. I can muscle my way through most things with my quads, when I know my glutes should be doing more. I need to slow down and really focus on getting those glutes to fire correctly because they are luke warm at best right now. Great info thanks.

[gaile]

Hi JP I can really relate to that.It takes practise to keep the knees soft and fire the butt isntead but I found the hundred one of the best exercises to get that connection.For me personally it was better to work in a slight turnout as I found it difficult to hold that as like you my quads would much rather do everything but now I can keep the feet and knees soft and really hold the glutes and inner thighs and of course now my abdominal connection also works much better.I cant understand anyone saying Pilates doesnt work the posterior chain?I really dont get that as thats the whole side of my body that has gotten really strong.I use to barely be able to squat halfway with the use of the springs now I can sit on the floor and get up with no springs or am I missing the point here?

[Carriage House Pilates]

AASI, on 21 December 2009 - 11:32 PM, said:

hey lizzie and PC...seems you are both speaking of the same exercise?
I'd say the firing pattern depends on the relation to the support and the position.
Try grounding the sternum and the pb before squeezing or lifting the legs and see what happens....

Hi Emma:
In straddle position, make sure the client is all the way up on the sit bones, which will probably require the knees to bend. Keep the heels grounded and perpendicular to the floor. Just sitting there for a bit should already be a challenge. From there, maintain upright torso posture and roll the heels (no sliding), allowing the knees to follow. The quads will work, the psoas will find balance and the hamstring will lengthen. Eventually, (days/weeks/months depending) the legs will "fall" (do not push) to the ground and the hamstrings will develop a normal range. Note: do as many reps as the quads can take, then lie supine, legs together, until legs release (you can zip and unzip.."zippers"..the inner thighs here with slightly bent knees), before doing another set; do 3-5 sets.

Once enough weight is into pelvis, and she feels almost able to lift a foot off the ground, the legs will also begin to release; this will allow the pelvis to roll forward. Keeping the support in the sit bones and heels, focus on rotating the leg sockets (to work to keep the knees pointing to the ceiling) as the pelvis rolls towards the pb. This is to balance the inner thighs, which will help to balance the glutes. There's lots to note here on spinal position...many variations depending on what the body needs, but this is a start.

I call the above exercise "Heel Rocks"--one of our essentials. Over time, people can sit upright supported through a strong pelvis/torso and the legs will fall straight.

Are the heels rolling forward, i.e. away from the sits bones, or into turnout? How can you roll them without sliding them? Thanks!

[LAville]

I have been working with Carole Amend for a while now, crossing the country when I can ( fortunately she hails from my neck of the woods, so we get together when she visits "home) I credit Carole with changing how I teach, and how I perceive the principles of the Method. She is an unsung leader in this field and has a wealth of knowledge and experience to share. And share is the operative word because she teaches with graciousness and never never gives the impression that "she has all the answers, or that what you are doing is not valid.

IF anyone is in the Mill VAlley CA area..do yourself a favor and take some sessions with Carole..it will change not only how you teach but how you view the body and the dynamic of the movements we teach.

[Carole Amend]

Carriage House Pilates, on 07 January 2010 - 03:20 PM, said:

Are the heels rolling forward, i.e. away from the sits bones, or into turnout? How can you roll them without sliding them? Thanks!

Short answers: Away from sitbones; by finding the joint release at the hips, knees, and ankles, while maintaining sitbone support. It takes exploration to find it, then practice to strengthen and maintain.

Longer answer:
First try sitting "naturally," that is, the place you usually sit on your sitbones. Start with legs together in front. For now, some may want to use the arms for support. (Later, explore any range from straddle to legs together in front. There is so much to look at here, but I'll try to be brief in answering the specific question.)

Roll the back of the heels on the floor into turnout and back to center (knees to ceiling), sensing the heel to sitbone connection. Find the place on the heel that is most perpendicular to the floor while also supporting a long leg alignment (head of femur > knee > ankle).

From there, sit all the way up on the sit bones, allowing the knees to follow naturally. Some will only need to bend the knees slightly, some will need to bend lots more, some needing to use a sturdy phone book sized pad or moon box to raise the sitbones off of the floor (in this case, the knees will be nearly 90 degrees bent). The range of dynamic challenge for different clients is an interesting study. (Again, there's a lot to look at here, and it more about the spine, but I'll stay with the feet for now.)

Here's where we maintain upright torso posture and roll the heels (no sliding), allowing the knees to follow, lifting to the ceiling and lowering back down.

Sliding will occur when there is not enough joint release, that is, too much push from the thighs or the arch in an effort to move the ankle (Note: I teach in my studio that the "ankle" is really not a thing in itself; it is a space between the talus and the tibia; Joints=spaces.). This exercise requires exploration of a range of relationships between grounding the bones and muscular effort. Ultimately, the hips, knees, and ankles release and the effort goes to the torso* (so, this is where it's real important to note spine position; remember to keep the spine lengthened as if leaning on a wall. I use a padded pole for some to sense that).

I sometimes place a sticky pad under the heel so one can feel the roll of the heel away from the sitbones. While grounding the heels and sitbones, try to maintain a stable talus/calcaneous connection and use the classic "pubic bone down" and opposing long spine cues to help in joint release.

*Some feel it in the quads, later the psoas.
Note: If there is any discomfort in the lower back: stop and lie down for a moment as noted in the other post, then repeat the set. The back will begin to feel better with practice.

Hope this makes sense,
Carole : )

[Emma]

Thanks to everyone for some really useful information.
For myself I have to say that one of the best exercises I have found for a toned behind is barefoot walking (not for the light hearted or those who live in colder climes perhaps....). The glutes have no choice but to engage on heel strike. Walking, and especially running, become very rewarding activities and feel effortless. Once you have practiced and recognise the feeling, you can actually mentally apply it with your shoes on.
Whilst I have no desire to have such large buttocks, the bushmen of South Africa are apparently a good example of highly toned bottoms, achieved (in part, I read it's also genetic) from barefoot walking. It makes sense that not doing what we were designed to do - walking without shoes- is going to lead to muscle imbalance.

[taowave]

S,none of the butt muscles are flexors of the hip.The Glute Max(big butt) is primarily an extensor so it does not contribute to bringing the knees to chest.The illiopsoas is the main contributor to hip flexion( assuming minimal-medium trunk flexion)

Siri Galliano, on 02 January 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

the glutes bring the knees to the chest, extend the leg, and externally rotate it.
they also stabilize the trunk, as in the short box.

[Carriage House Pilates]

lizzie, on 22 December 2009 - 01:46 AM, said:

Do not get me started. The use of the hips - joints and muscles - has been one of the biggest Pilates lightbulbs for me. When I think of the amount of time some of my instructors used to spend saying "Relax the bottom" and "feel your glutes waving in the breeze", it kinda ticks me off, actually. And I was with a school who are pro-glutes, as things go. I know plenty of instructors who don't want glutes to fire in a shoulder bridge or a side leg lift. My school was keen to get the butt firing there, but not keen on it in Hundred, Roll Up or Teaser, for example.

I used to do hip flexor stretches (lunge/warrior-type poses) in nearly all my mat classes. Now I never do them, but I always feel freer in my hip flexors after a class. My hammies are looser, I roll better, my pushups are better, everything falls into place... people who don't work their butts are shortchanging themselves, in my experience.

Um, to answer the question: I think my reason for de-emphasising the tush was a belief that the core consisted of only abdominals (mainly transversus abdominis), pelvic floor and multifidus. I didn't want people using their "big bad" muscles to do the job of the core. Now, I don't want people to let go of their deep support muscles, but I certainly don't want them trying to use their TvA to extend their hips, or their multifidus to strongly rotate their spine, or their pelvic floor to bend their knee, or any of the other semi-harebrained things I used to suggest. (As a disclaimer, I'm sure that my school's HQ wouldn't have condoned all of those ideas - I picked them up from many sources, and some of them were enforced by my boss.)

I'm interested to hear other opinions here. I think (and hope) that demonising glutes was a brief PT phase.

I agree, my training also deemphasized the gluteals as a way to find the core. Then I had difficulty finding my glutes again! I just studied with Kit Larson who emphasizes stretching the hip flexors as a way to allow the gluteals to get back to work and help out the hamstrings. His work has helped me rebalance and get back to using my gluteals! Thanks, everyone, for a great discussion.

[taowave]

Hi C,
I somehow missed this reply and JUST came across it.I will be chasing the bone as soon as I get the chance and will get back to you.Thanks as always.

AASI, on 05 January 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:

Here's a Quote from Dr Mel Siff in 2000:

taowave,
In case you'd like to chase the bone I just threw...
Siff --> Iron Game --> Physical Culture --> Stark Center Iron Game History--> Murray, Karpovich, etc.
Then you're close to Rathbone, Karpovich's wife, and what I've been working with since the early 90s.
Btw, with that info there's no need for comparison, only description.
Also, nothing to do with politics...simply technical, validated information.

[taowave]

Hi G,
Pilates works the posterior chain,just not enough:)

gaile, on 07 January 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

I cant understand anyone saying Pilates doesnt work the posterior chain?I really dont get that as thats the whole side of my body that has gotten really strong.I use to barely be able to squat halfway with the use of the springs now I can sit on the floor and get up with no springs or am I missing the point here?